The homeless men in Time Out of Mind feel like no one can see them, and it’s testament to the great talent of the actors playing them that they manage to pull this off, even though their star quality is the kind that inevitably gets people noticed. One of them is played by Richard Gere, whose George fills the screen with sadness and longing, the other by the legendary Ben Vereen whose wise, soft spoken Dixon allows the film to breathe and make room for some hope within the bittersweet landscape presented by director Oren Moverman. The film played at the 2014 New York Film Festival, where it received great notices (read our review here) and will make its theatrical debut almost a full year later, time during which social issues in America have perhaps taken a turn for the worse.
Sitting down with Mr. Vereen to discuss the film feels both like a celebration of an artwork - he welcomes me by playing a sweet melody on a small wooden flute - and a thought provoking invitation to discuss topics that seem unfixable, and yet, perhaps because of his optimism and intelligence, I leave the conversation elated, feeling like I can conquer the world. Mr. Vereen has indeed conquered the world of stage, television and film (few artists boast a resume that includes Pippin, Roots and All That Jazz) and for someone who is usually, and rightfully, referred to as a legend, he’s not one to rest on his laurels. An advocate for education, preservation of the arts and mental health, the Tony-winner continues adding achievements to an already insuperable career, in November he will direct a production of Hair in Venice Florida.
During our conversation, we talked about his superb work in Time Out of Mind, as well as the state of theatre and its importance in social change. To say it was an honor to speak with him would be a true understatement.
I saw Time Out of Mind at the 2014 New York Film Festival…
What did you think about it?
I thought it was really interesting, and I wanted to start by asking about the unconventional methods Oren Moverman used to shoot it.
Isn’t that amazing? He wanted to make it seamless and he didn’t want the camera to interfere, so the cinematographer used these super lenses and shot from far away, so the camera wouldn’t be disruptive when it came to shooting in the streets surrounded by people.
Did the actors have the opportunity to improvise?
Yeah, he gave us a sense of freedom. There was a lot of that.
How was that for you? Do you prefer having a rigid structure?
No, this is nice, because this is an organic piece I had a lot of dialogue, and sometimes you get caught up in it, so Oren was kind to say “do your thing”.
You are known for talking about the issues that matter to you…
I hope this matters to everyone!
….absolutely, and I found it interesting how the film allows you to see the city in a completely different way. I remember Richard Gere told a story after the NYFF screening about how he stood for hours out in the street, in character, and people just walked past him and ignored him.
That’s what I’m hoping does not happen to this film. That people don’t disregard this film and sweep it under the rug like they do with the homeless, they don’t want to see them. Richard and I were at Astor Place standing, I actually would go up to people and they did not recognize who I was, and didn’t want to even look at me. And the comments! They’d say “get outta here!”, some people were endearing though. One lady almost made me break character, she came up to me and said “I have nothing, but take what I have, take this sandwich”. But so many others were ruthless, because many people treat this like a leprosy, if they touch it they will get it. My brothers and sisters who were dealing with AIDS, it was the same thing, people thought they would get it by touching them. Same thing now with the homeless. There but for the grace of God, go you my friend…
That’s really sad. I like that you brought up the fact that the movie shouldn’t be ignored by people, because films with social messages get disregarded. People wanna go see Batman and Superman fight each other instead…
Which is all about destruction (laughs) I went to the movies the other day, and every movie I saw was about destruction. We are inundated with the idea that the planet is terrible so we should destroy it, or that people are bad so we should destroy them. They show us what they think the future will be like, instead of saying “no, we have the power, we have the voice to say no”. All these killings going on in the world...soon we’ll have metal detectors in movie houses! It’s because we are allowing it to people, we the people, where are we standing? If we don’t like what’s going on we need to stand and say something about it, and do something about it.
I have to confess that watching Time Out of Mind, I couldn’t help but be a theatre nerd and the second you show up and become a mentor to George, I thought “The Leading Player”!
(Laughs) Of course, I’m leading him!
George, just like Pippin is very lost, and your character Dixon helps show him the way as well. Actually I was so disappointed at NYFF because you weren’t at the press conference and I was dying to ask you about the parallels and if you saw them?
I hadn’t thought about it, but you’re right, you’re absolutely right I was the Leading Player in this particular movie, it’s a continuation of Leading Player, except without the magic and the dancing. That’s very good, very intuitive. Dang, this means I’m typecast then! No wonder I can’t find work! (Laughs)
I’m also curious because as critics we sometimes commit the sin of assuming that actors are always carrying around the characters they’ve played in the past. Is that the case with you? Do your previous characters help form the new one?
We actors have to carry around our bag of tricks and when we can’t find what we need, sometimes we have to find new bags (laughs) ‘cause that way we can bring to you, our public, what you have come to see, what you expect of us. We have to investigate, and somewhere there’s a piece of a character that come together to form that character, and sometimes we’re lucky we get a whole new stretch inside the character we’re doing. And that builds a whole new bag of tricks.
Speaking of new bags of tricks, you’re directing Hair down in Venice, Florida.
I am!
And again, you were in Hair…
Right, I played Hud, I was the dance captain and also played Berger, and now I’m directing it.
How have things changed since you were in the show more than forty years ago, to now when you’re directing it?
You know the reason I wanted to do it? Because we ain’t done nothing. From my perspective. My generation was the one in the streets, we said we’re going to make this world better, we’re gonna get rid of the differences, we’re gonna have equal rights for everybody, get rid of prejudice, get rid of segregation, we’re gonna do it! We protested Vietnam! And look where we are today...I’m showing Hair as a vehicle to show us what’s happened, the way we are today. And the question is: have we let the sunshine in? What have we done? I’m hoping that this production we’re doing there will get to tour in colleges, so that the young people begin to say we can make a difference, we can make this world better. We were there, where young people are today, and now it looks like they’re facing a greater horror than we did at the time. When you turn on the news today it’s horrific. Perhaps because we have social media and more channels bringing us the news all the time, my God, in my time nobody talked about people getting beheaded by Isis. Isis for me was an Egyptian goddess, not a group that killed people! Now we have terrorists and bombings, I watched that tower come down from my window! A young child goes into a church and shoots a bunch of black people, a child! Police officers are killing black people in the streets....and this is happening in my time, right now. Prisoners are going into people’s homes and killing families, this is my time, your time. We as people need to stop this. I don’t know what the answer is, but we have to find one. Some people say this is God’s way of saying the end is coming. Well, if the end is coming then why don’t we party out?
I admire how despite being aware of all this, your outlook is never bleak but instead you invite us to celebrate and seek change.
Yes!
Is it difficult? We’re in a society that craves destruction like you said before.
We’re fed that and it becomes the norm. Destruction has become the norm. I don’t know, but the God, or Buddha, or Allah, or Jesus, the Spirit that I serve is not about destruction, but about life abundantly, a giver of life, a lover of life. I may be naive, and I probably am, but I think I’ll stay naive, and if that’s the way I gotta be, then that’s the way I’m gonna be. I can’t get in my head blowing up a city, or killing my neighbor, it’s just not my nature. Maybe I’m a delayed flower child (laughs) but so be it. Maybe I took the hippie era too seriously. Maybe I believed in all that stuff about love and peace. As part of my research for the Hair project I’m seeing Woodstock and seeing all this come together in Atlanta, Georgia, man, Jimi Hendrix playing the National Anthem (imitates electric guitar), people cheering! We don’t have anything like that anymore.
What kind of things do you say to your cast? Do they ask you about how it was to do the show on Broadway when it opened?
Not as much no, I don’t talk to them about that, I try to keep them in the present day, because what is happening today is worse than what was happening then, it’s more in your face now, and what are you gonna do about it? Preparing them and letting them find their voice and how they wanna express Hair today.
What would you say is the role that theatre should play when it comes to discussing social issues?
Theatre in general is the voice of the people. Where we reflect what’s going on in the world and the fears and hopes of tomorrow, that’s our job, to entertain people but also to educate them and make them aware of the issues. It’s their choice to do something about it, but we’ve made our part. We learned that art funds are being cut from most schools, so I asked myself what can I do to give the art back to kids? I believe if you give young people the arts, then destruction will fade. I have a thing called Wellness Through the Arts where what we do is we take kids and they write essays about living with obesity, low self esteem, bullying and the topic is “my best day” or “the day my life changed for the better”, they write a 2 page essay, a 2 minute video and we give the winners $500. But what does that do? That begins conversation, that’s what art does. I believe life itself is an art form, you’re an artist (points at me), when you woke up this morning you decided to paint yourself these colors, you painted yourself with what you’re wearing and went into the world. You’re an artist! If we treat each other like we treat art on the wall, if we turned and said “I am a walking art piece” and I choose to express myself like this today...maybe just maybe, I don’t know, maybe we’d respect each other better. So maybe let’s try this with the young people.
Considering you believe young people should access the arts, what’s your take on the insane prices of theatre tickets?
Well, you said it, economics and things like that are turning this into the United States of Greed. You have got to give the art to young people, if you wanna have the high prices then at least have one day for people who can’t afford to go to the theatre, get to go to the theatre. I was a kid from what they call the ghetto, had not one person entered my life and said “come to the theatre I wanna show you something”, and took me to the opera when I was 8 years old, I was left thinking “what was that?” (laughs) and my whole perspective changed. We can do that with the arts! Look, prices are getting a little insane, but I don’t know what the answer is to make them lower, I’m just an artist, but we’ve got to think about the young people. In my Bible it says “in the beginning God created”, it doesn’t say “in the beginning God manufactured”, so let’s stop that and give kids their art.
However people might get a chance to see you in Time Out of Mind thanks to Video on Demand and other methods which means they can see you perform on their phones and computers.
I know and all that’s great, but let’s not forget live theatre, there’s nothing like live theatre! In my rehearsals there are no cell phones. No cell phones on me either. When we don’t see things live, we become insensitive to one another. (Grabs phone, says “click click” and smiles) And what happens when we become insensitive? Life loses value.
Time Out of Mind is now in theaters. For more information on Hair visit Venice Theatre's official website. For more on Wellness Through the Arts visit The Ben Vereen Awards.
